Bodily boundaries for solar safety? Huberman’s skincare podcast response (Half 1)

February 11, 2025

The way to cite:
Wong M. Bodily boundaries for solar safety? Huberman’s skincare podcast response (Half 1). Lab Muffin Magnificence Science. January 29, 2025. Accessed February 2, 2025.
https://labmuffin.com/physical-barriers-for-sun-protection-hubermans-skincare-podcast-response-part-1/

A short while again, Dr Andrew Huberman, a Stanford neuroscientist with a large podcast, launched an episode known as “The way to Enhance Pores and skin Well being & Look”. It had a bunch of barely bizarre suggestions for those who’re acquainted with skincare science. He talked about a few of his sources, however didn’t have any consultants speaking.

1.5 months later, he launched one other pores and skin episode, this time with a dermatologist and pores and skin most cancers surgeon, Dr Teo Soleymani. And numerous the suggestions began making extra sense to me, however not essentially in a great way…

The complete video is right here (it needs to be listenable as a podcast as an alternative for those who want), the textual content model continues under and is damaged up into a number of components.

This has been one in every of my most requested matters, and it ended up being my longest YouTube video at 2 hours. The 2 Huberman episodes added as much as 5 hours and 14 minutes – in Lord of the Rings items, that’s the entire of the primary film, and nearly to the tip of the second film, simply two minutes earlier than Gimli says “Toss me”, for those who’re watching the unique theatrical releases and skipping the credit.

I attempted to organise it by matter to make it extra digestible, since some had been addressed in each episodes. I additionally tried my finest to seize the gist of what they had been saying within the quoted sections.

I had no robust emotions both manner about Huberman or the dermatologist earlier than listening to their opinions on skincare, and interacting with them on-line. I hadn’t actually regarded into Huberman a lot till folks began asking me about his feedback on sunscreen.

Unhealthy recommendation in my specialty space annoys me lots. I’ve adopted unhealthy skincare recommendation, and I was a moderator on the Skincare Habit subreddit, so I’ve seen a lot of different folks following unhealthy recommendation. It’s an enormous waste of money and time – there’s a lot BS surrounding skincare already, I actually don’t suppose we want scientists including to that.

Quite a lot of the stuff within the episodes is basically right, so far as I can inform. I’m skipping numerous the dermatology/pores and skin illness stuff because it’s not my forte (possibly a dermatologist can touch upon it). I’m not going to nitpick little errors an excessive amount of (folks say the incorrect phrase when talking off the cuff) – I’m going to concentrate on the large points, and the suggestions, which is de facto the place I feel it goes a bit pear-shaped.

Solar safety

“There may be clear proof that daylight could cause pores and skin cancers.”

“I wish to spotlight the truth that there’s little or no controversy as as to if or not UV gentle could cause mutations in cells.”

“I’m not any person who thinks that sunscreen has no worth. In reality, fairly the alternative below sure situations and sure sunscreens. I wish to say that for the report.”

– Huberman Lab, “The way to Enhance Pores and skin Well being and Look”, 1 July 2024 [Solo Skincare Episode]

Sunscreen was how I first got here throughout Andrew Huberman – there was a viral clip of him warning towards chemical sunscreens, which I broke down in one other video. That led to lots of people saying that Huberman didn’t advocate sunscreen, and since he was a Stanford professor with a large following, nobody ought to put on sunscreen. So I do actually respect him being so clear about addressing this within the episode.

We have a tendency to consider pores and skin most cancers as no large deal, however I lately watched a documentary known as Conquering Pores and skin Most cancers which was actually eye-opening. After the most cancers’s been eliminated, some folks should get remedy each 2 weeks for the remainder of their lives. One lady had an eyebrow eliminated twice, and her neck was grafted to switch her cheek – she had particular remedy to reprogram her mind into sensing it as her cheek. The pores and skin most cancers unfold into one other individual’s lymph node, which burst and despatched the most cancers into his blood. It’s not all the time one thing you possibly can simply brush off.

“Many individuals imagine that in the event that they didn’t get a sunburn, they don’t seem to be at extra threat for inducing pores and skin most cancers or different points with pores and skin, proper? We’re not simply speaking about pores and skin most cancers, we’re speaking about accelerated ageing of the pores and skin in keeping with solar publicity.” – Solo Skincare Episode

Once more, a lot of credit score to him for this necessary message. The proof may be very clear: intense solar publicity that results in a sunburn is unhealthy, however pores and skin harm from intermittent solar publicity is cumulative.

In the Nambour trial (THE most well-known randomised scientific trial on sunscreen), individuals who wore every day sunscreen persistently had much less pores and skin cancers and pores and skin ageing than those that wore it usually – to locations just like the seashore, the place they had been more likely to burn.

After 4.5 years of every day sunscreen, the principle findings had been:

No detectable enhance in pores and skin ageing with every day sunscreen after 4.5 years
24% much less more likely to present elevated ageing
40% discount in SCC tumours throughout trial
New SCC and SCC incidence about one-third decrease 8 years later
22% discount of actinic keratoses in first 2 years
Invasive melanomas diminished by 73% over 15 years
Common invasive melanoma thickness 0.53 mm with every day sunscreen vs 1.2 mm

This research from the Nineteen Nineties used an SPF 16 sunscreen that didn’t look correctly photostabilised (it contained 8% octinoxate and a pair of% avobenzone because the sunscreen filters), so the sunscreens we have now now could have an even bigger influence.

However then we get into the specifics of solar safety and sunscreens. The misunderstandings introduced listed below are fairly widespread, even with medical docs and dermatologists, and scientists who aren’t as acquainted with this space. That is going to get lots worse over the subsequent few years as a result of US laws are type of ass backwards about this, so this can be a good time to debate it.

Bodily boundaries

Earlier than discussing sunscreen, he talks about “bodily boundaries” in its place for folks anxious about chemical compounds:

“Should you’re simply one in every of these folks that doesn’t wish to put sunscreen on, since you’re very involved about no matter chemical is perhaps in sunscreen. Properly then, take into account that the bodily barrier of an article of clothes or a hat or a bandana of types, can certainly protect you from the solar to a point, typically to an ideal diploma. And once more I don’t suppose there’s any controversy as as to if or not these are secure.” – Solo Skincare Episode

He additionally brings up bodily boundaries a bunch within the second episode:

Andrew Huberman (AH): And possibly for the second, let’s simply put aside sunscreens and acknowledge {that a} bodily barrier like hat, lengthy sleeves, lengthy pants offers a fairly good barrier to the solar. Right?

Teo Soleymani (TS): Yeah. In reality, bodily boundaries like shade, clothes, hats have been proven to be more practical, um, than topical sunscreens for a number of causes.

AH: One other name for the mineral based mostly sunscreens simply as a, you realize, why, why take the chance?

TS: And even, you realize, shade hat clothes. You understand, for those who’re actually anxious about placing one thing on an absorption, you get wonderful safety by pure boundaries.

It’s additionally in one of many two Instagram posts he used to advertise this episode: “Nobody debates a bodily barrier.”

I type of get it – you wish to give folks an answer in the event that they’re by no means going to put on sunscreen. But when it’s introduced like a straightforward different with zero downsides, lots of people will go for it – not one of the limitations of bodily boundaries are mentioned. I’m undecided if Huberman or the dermatologist understand how large a few of these downsides are (I actually didn’t earlier than wanting into the analysis correctly). I feel in the event that they did, they usually additionally realised how secure sunscreens are, the cost-benefit calculus could be completely different, and possibly they wouldn’t have leaned into bodily boundaries as a lot.

Shade

First off, hats and shade are nice, however a bit misleading.

Shade doesn’t essentially give nice safety due to scattering. You may nonetheless see objects within the shade as a result of seen gentle isn’t simply coming straight from the solar – it’s additionally scattered off air molecules excessive up within the sky. It’s lots darker within the shade than within the solar, however there’s nonetheless gentle coming into.

However UV scatters much more – UVB (the quick wavelengths that trigger extra harm) scatters about 10 instances greater than seen gentle. So the quantity of UV harm you’re getting within the shade is roughly 10 instances greater than you’d count on, based mostly on how visibly darkish it’s. That is why you possibly can nonetheless get sunburnt within the shade.

Associated publish: Do Hats and Umbrellas Defend Properly From the Solar?

A great way of estimating how a lot scattered UV you’re getting is sky view. Mainly for those who’re in the midst of a area, very roughly 40% of the UV you get is immediately from the solar, whereas 60% is scattered from the sky (the precise percentages rely on issues like latitude and wavelength however the important thing level: direct daylight can account for lower than half of your whole UV).

For the ~60% from the sky, the quantity is proportional to the quantity of sky you see:

Should you’re in the midst of a area, you’re seeing 100% of the within of a dome of sky.

Should you’re utterly within the shade of a tiny umbrella that simply blocks out the solar, with zero sunshine immediately hitting your pores and skin, you’re nonetheless getting 60% of the whole UV.
Should you’re standing proper subsequent to a home and also you’re utterly within the shade, you’ve blocked out half the sky, so that you’re getting 30%. Which means you’re nonetheless getting about one third of the UV you had been getting in the midst of the sunny area! And this may be additional misleading, since you gained’t really feel anyplace close to as scorching.

Hats

Hats don’t block out a ton of sky. There’s additionally UV being scattered from the bottom, and surfaces round you.

One research checked out an Akubra Drover hat – over a 12 months, brow UV was diminished to 1/7, nostril UV was 1/3, however the cheek was nonetheless getting greater than half the UV in comparison with no hat. That fraction is how SPF works, so on common, the hat was giving SPF 2 to six. That’s fairly low in comparison with sunscreen – and this can be a fairly large hat not like, say, a baseball cap.

Associated publish: Do Hats and Umbrellas Defend Properly From the Solar?

cancer council hat — It is a Most cancers Council hat that’s just like an Akubra Drover (this was a free pattern)

Clothes and material are additionally nice however once more, there are limitations. The primary one is that when UV is excessive, it’s normally scorching, and the types of pure, gentle colored, ethereal materials you’d wish to put on don’t block a lot UV. For instance, about two thirds of the white materials examined on this research had lower than UPF 15.

Associated publish: The way to Select UV Protecting Clothes

After all, sunscreen has downsides too. You employ it up a lot quicker than hats or clothes, you might want to reapply, it’s straightforward to skip spots, and most of the people don’t apply sufficient.

Associated publish: Answering (Virtually) Each Sunscreen Query

So we shouldn’t consider it as hats versus clothes versus sunscreen – it’s actually hats plus clothes plus sunscreen, plus shade and sun shades. That is the messaging that’s been utilized in Australia for a very long time:

SLIP on a shirt
SLOP on some sunscreen
SLAP on a hat
SEEK shade
SLIDE on sun shades

I went to an interdisciplinary solar safety convention in Queensland lately, the pores and skin most cancers capital of the world (I truly did a plenary speak) – lots of the solar safety researchers actually emphasised this layering, Swiss cheese method.